Back to Volunteer Charter Page

Swan Hill  15 March 2001

Wangaratta 21 March 2001 

Shepparton 22 March 2001 

Woodend 27 March 2001

Sale 28 March 2001 

Knox 29 March 2001 

Western State Telephone 
Conference 3 April 2001

Corio 4 April 2001 

Ararat 5 April 2001 

Berwick  11 April 2001 

Eastern State Telephone Conference 11 April 2001 

Swan Hill 15 March 2001

Intention of feedback meetings – to start feedback sessions on charter.   Series of overhead displays followed by questions/answer session. Charter arose as the EBA excludes volunteers as they are unpaid members of CFA.  However the EBA has impacted on the volunteers.  Govt. is not required to include volunteers in discussion therefore the 60,000 volunteers are not represented in any IRC hearing, however the union members are – these only total approx 300

Comments following overheads. (R: = response by committee members to questions.)

It should be noted that details of the EBA are not discussed with volunteer members.  Individuals are not aware of content, only when it arises and impacts, e.g., in relation to the impact of trainers, which has the impact that there is a lack of recognition of qualifications or skills of volunteers within the organisation.

The Charter lays the foundations for consultation with Govt and the Associations, this therefore allows the creation/development of a volunteer “EBA” type document.

Swan Hill
Not all present have read the draft charter (copies handed out for perusal)

Lake Boga
Some feedback has been given to members present – a few feel it is not in the best interests of “safety of community” ie make the point about “safety of the community” the first point in the charter, not the last.  This allows the “motto” to be in the forefront of the document.

It appears to make a distinction between CFA and volunteers, not all members of CFA. 
R: The charter is attempting to make authorities realise there are two arms of the CFA

Swan Hill
Has the Union been involved or aware of the development of the draft?  Union is of opinion volunteers know nothing – they will send career staff up from Melbourne to present training for volunteer members where there are qualified volunteers available.
R: Difficulties are arising where members are not being recognised as qualified trainers.  Committee is quite sure that although the UFU or ASU have not directly been involved at this stage, they will no doubt have a copy of the draft – there are union members in brigades. Union cannot stop the development of the Charter as they need to be acting on behalf of members.

The relative size difference between some 400 UFU members in the CFA versus 60,000 volunteers would have to be taken into account by the Government. 

In some areas where there is a larger number of career staff some “bad blood” has been displayed as a result of the EBA

Swan Hill
Can see that this allows the volunteers to have representation that demonstrates the size of the volunteer organisation.  UFU only has only some 300 members yet they have a voice at IRC hearings as a result of EBA.

Draft charter identifies issues that need to be accepted and then addressed
R: Debate has arisen as to where the details start and stop in the Charter A signed Charter allows negotiation concerning further matters – this is something that can be further developed – need to get ground work in place so there is something to start negotiation process on.

Lake Boga
Rob Waterson said issues had been raised with Govt. previously but there has been little reason for the Minister to be interested.
R: Some people have found him to be more receptive with a better understanding of the organisation than previously.  Seems to be more receptive to talking about issues – more an open door than closed

Swan Hill
What is the envisaged timetable?
R: Meetings to be held until mid-April. Committee to review/revise mid-May CFA/Govt. mid-June. Signing mid-July. 

Need to take advantage of “Year of the Volunteer” – more likely to get positive responses this year than any other.

Swan Hill
Charter is good idea – country needs are different to Melbourne.  Definite need for say in what is happening.
Country feel Melbourne don’t support, Melbourne feel Country don’t support – issues aren’t known to all.  Seems to be “them and us” issues.   If Associations are negotiating on behalf of members, they will then keep members aware and informed.

Swan Hill
Is the Govt actually aware of the 60000 volunteers?
R: Yes, because of discussions with minister more recently and regularly in reports to government..

The picture that some people’s views of volunteers is not close to reality – volunteers really do the same as the career staff.

Where previously volunteers had been told to keep out of issues, really need to consider the need for local political members to be aware of issues and have a more realistic picture.

Volunteers are under-rated and unrecognised. Volunteers feel walked over by the union – there is a need to volunteers to be heard. CFA should have the right to hire whoever for whatever job, as long as they are appropriate and suitable qualified/experienced

Is enough recognition given to long term volunteer members?
R: Older members joined for what they could do for the community, not what the service can do for them.

Swan Hill
Some reasons have changed for people to join – there are now barriers – skilled volunteers versus skilled paid members.
There are always issues for increased time off work for volunteer time – this effects self employed as much as anyone else – many reasons including not being able to safely leave a “worksite” if tradesperson – pressures of workload, worktools cannot be left behind
 

The meeting chairman ascertained that the meeting generally supported the volunteer charter and the themes in the charter..
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Wangaratta 21 March 2001

Welcome all.  Introduction from Steering Committee members Ken Baxter, Allan Small, Vince Ingram and Consultant Adrian Walsh.

Purpose of meeting to familiarise everybody with the Charter. A chance to get volunteers involved and to get feedback.

The presentation of the document is a follow-up from the copy sent to Secretaries & Captains.  The aim is to get the support of all the volunteers so that the Charter can be signed off.

We want to make sure that the contents of the document is understood by all volunteers.  We are holding about 9 forums across the State to try and get to as many volunteers as possible to get support.

The Charter arose out of a lot of concern following recent enterprise bargaining negotiations.  Minimum Skills Training was introduced without any consultation with volunteers.

Steering committee has representatives from all over the State plus representatives from both Associations and representatives from CFA.

The idea of the Charter is to:
Communicate the core role and value of volunteers to CFA mission.
Address fairness between volunteers and Career Staff.
Make sure volunteers have a say in all issues which concern them.

V: spoke with regards to the relationship between volunteers and career staff.
 “Volunteers and Career Staff in this are have had a good relationship for many years”.  Where have these concerns come from and why is this charter being put together now?

R:concerns explaining that the EBA and Unions have had 
An impact on that relationship.

V1: The “CFA” Board sold the volunteers out – Volunteer firefighters have no claim in this State. Currently apart from the new CEO of the Authority, I do not trust anybody in the Authority.

R: The Charter hopefully, will express the volunteer culture, mutually binding “contract” between volunteers and CFA.

V1: “Why are we involved in the EBA agreement when we are volunteers giving of our time”?

R:The UFU have control over training etc.  The UFU are dictating.  Volunteers want to be consulted and have a say in these issues.  We need a say!!

Reality Check
This Charter has to be acceptable to the volunteers first, then the CFA management and then we have to get the Government to sign it.
Then we have something to build on.
If they want to change the legislation or anything, they have to come and talk to us about it.
We want to make this so the younger members aren’t afraid to take management positions.
The Charter is made up of a pre-amble – talks about volunteerism, the commitment from volunteers, CFA management etc.

Allan Small said –
That CFA have become self centred and have forgotten the volunteers.
V1: "We need a definition of “What is a volunteer”?

V2: “You are going to a lot of trouble for a gentleman’s agreement.  Will this document have any legal binding”? 
V3: pointed out that if this document ends up in the Industrial Commission – we will get thrown out with our Charter.
The Charter needs to be written into the Act and Regulations – this is a long way off, but hopefully will eventuate as part of legislation.
It was pointed out that nothing in the Charter was any different to what we have now.  Perhaps our Associations are not representing us properly on the board.

V4 express his disappointment in the way the volunteers are being dictated to, with minimum skills etc.

Adrian Walsh said that he had no other role other than supporting the Committee to achieve their Charter, however, he pointed out that Volunteers will have it on their side.

V5 had concerns with the wording “The volunteer will”!!

Mutual Respect

Volunteer Commitment

“To the best of their abilities”

CFA Commitment

Recognise and respect and promote Volunteer Commitment.
Timely consultation – not after effect.
We need to say this – “timely”.

Victorian Government Commitment

In recognition of this volunteer commitment.
The government needs to recognise volunteers.  Value, respect and promote volunteers.

V6 said that the associations were trying to get the “Fireground” exempted from O.H. &S.

Provision of adequate financial assistance.

Date and Signatories

Charter will commence on the day it is signed.

V7 asked what the possibilities were at getting the Government to sign off considering their close involvement with the Union body.

Allan Small – John Landy should be approached to be patron of Victorian Firefighters.
Once finalised the document will be circularised to everybody for comment.

Why do we have to consult with CFA before we go to Government?

Allan Small –
Better to get everybody together.  The organisation are keen to sign off on a Charter for their volunteers.

Presentation Over – Meeting Agenda.

1. Discussion at Wangaratta

We need a document no larger than 2 pages.

Need to get legal advice on the document.

What recourse and potential will it have for the volunteers.

Maybe try and get the Charter through during the Year of the Volunteers.

Need to give the Volunteers a chance to review the re-drafted document.

Ken Baxter has asked Volunteers to obtain a copy of the Charter, make comments and send them back to the Committee.

V1 thanked Ken Baxter and Allan Small for their efforts and for bringing the Charter to North East Area.

The Committee need to have a clear indication about their direction – are they on the right track? – do the Volunteers support it?

V suggested that the document needs to be circulated throughout the Groups as well as the Brigades.

Allan Small suggested that the Brigades make up the Groups – “it’s the Volunteers document”.

“That the concept of the Volunteer Charter be accepted, in principle”.
Moved Barry Saunders, seconded Ron Schultz.
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Shepparton, 22 March 2001

Chairman Ron Hooper welcomed everyone to the meeting and introduced Neville Jones as a Steering Committee member and Adrian Walsh as consultant on the project. He then presented an overview of the proposed Volunteers’ Charter and its implications for all stakeholders. Following this presentation he welcomed comments from the floor as the goal of the evening was to gain support of all CFA volunteers.

Ron also articulated that this draft Charter was a partnership between the CFA, volunteers and state Government.

Many questions were posed to Chairman Ron and Committee member Nev Jones. Questions on how people were nominated to the Steering Committee were answered by Nev who explained that Area Managers nominated people.

During the course of the meeting it was explained that the Bracks Government have been informed about the draft Charter. The Government has accepted in principle the Charter and has given a commitment to it as part of the International Year of Volunteers. It was also detailed that it was hoped to have the Premier sign the final Charter on behalf of the Victorian community and not the appropriate Minister. It is expected that this Charter would be signed in August sometime.

Following this the participants were asked whether they supported the general concept of the Volunteer Charter. This motion was passed by those present. (see below). Nev opened the discussion by articulating several points along with input offered by the participants at the meeting.

The proposed volunteer Charter sets ground rules for all three parties.
The current CEO of the CFA is pro volunteers and the relationship is - that head office serves volunteers not the other way round. Thus this Charter is very timely as the CEO is only in for a term of three years.
The volunteer Charter is viewed as a catalyst to put things in place with the Government.
There is a lack of understanding as to what constitutes a volunteer, and how the Charter addresses this.
Issue of who is the employer and the employee and at present, volunteers are NOT in the loop in any negotiation process. Furthermore, they do not have any part of the EBA.
There is an urgent need for a watchdog to protect the interests of volunteers.

Following from this Adrian Walsh stated that volunteers do not fall under the auspices of the EBA. To meet the criteria volunteers would need to be paid something and in part, the Charter as it evolves, will become a contract, which will allow volunteers to argue/promote to media if necessary. Much discussion ensured and it was agreed that consultation was essential. This consultation included full consideration of issues affecting volunteers which arise in the course of CFA’s industrial negotiations with unions on behalf of paid staff (including EBA). It was agreed that the dispute process is a major issue. It was also articulated that volunteers want to be consulted in ALL areas because at present they have no opportunity to debate issues nor have any power/say. Volunteers can only comment and this is unacceptable.

Once the (Volunteer Charter) contract has been finalised and signed, and in the instance of the Government (or the CFA) reneging on the commitment to consult, then volunteers have a leg to stand on. Nev then stated that the contract needs to be gutsy not touchy feely! Furthermore, it shouldn’t be political however; the CFA volunteers are a powerful organization with over 60,000 in Victoria.

It was agreed by all present that consultation was essential before the Volunteer Charter was signed off. Secondly, it was pointed out that following the signing of the Charter should unions cause problems for the volunteers, then it would be appropriate to call on the Government for assistance. At the same time this could be used against the Government should they renege on their promise. Following this signing process the volunteer Charter should be pushed to the limit, kept on testing its boundaries to ensure that volunteers are involved in discussions. At the same time it was important to promote and campaign this Charter to all politicians to gain their support and raise awareness.

In summary, chairman Ron asked the meeting if they believed in the concept of the volunteer Charter and its themes. Everyone indicated that they were happy with the Charter and during this discussion it was identified that recognition of employers who employ volunteers as workers and who gave them time off to attend fires needed to be acknowledged and had not been mentioned in the current draft Charter. 

At this point the floor praised the efforts of the Steering Committee to undertake this volunteer Charter and it was appreciated that both State Presidents were in attendance.

Motion: That the meeting support the presented volunteer Charter and subsequent themes, and include wording to acknowledge employers support of volunteer fighters who are in their employ. Moved by Tom Body and seconded by John Wilson. Passed.

Chairman Ron then outlined there is another Committee formulating a Code of Conduct for volunteer firefighters. This will commence in another couple of weeks.

In conclusion, it was suggested that post this meeting more key players be contacted for consultation and feedback in the development of the volunteer Charter.
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Woodend  27 March 2001

Quentin Turner chaired the meeting and provided an overview of the Volunteer Charter. He presented background information based on speakers notes and overhead transparencies.

V=volunteer
R=response

Comments from the meeting:

We should call it the CFA Volunteer Firefighters Charter to reflect what we do. (V1)

Need Legal standing of the charter. If we go thorough this and the government reneges, what comeback do we have? What is the legal standing of the charter? CFA know that volunteers will never walk away or go on strike. They play on this.

Will it still hold up under a change of government?
R:Maybe we need to get the opposition to agree. EBA’s have a fixed period of time for which they are covered.

Who will ensure the charter will go ahead?
R: The Urban and Rural Associations will implement the charter.

Upon every election, the charter should be renegotiated with the new government, otherwise the charter will be lost (V2). Needs to be geared into a general election.

The terms fair, just and reasonable can be determined differently by different parties. The word ‘reasonable’ is too wide a word. It needs to be more clearly defined.
R: This works two ways. The charter also says volunteer will work to the best of their abilities. This is similar to saying that the CFA or government will act reasonably. I hear what you’re saying but to protect the volunteers we need to have something that is workable. We will take on board your comments and look for some other words.

If you compare it with an EBA, if the two parties don’t agree, there is a court to resolve the matters. The charter need to consider a mechanism that can be taken if the parties don’t agree. (v3).
R: Yes this needs to be considered.

I find that with government they always outsmart us. I’m concerned that we may be doing something that the government may hit us with. For example, if I don’t do anything to the best of my ability, will I be penalized or get hit over the head for not doing something to the best of our ability.
R: I under stand what you’re saying. Perhaps we may be able to look at a different set of words. We don’t demand that you do everything perfectly, we want all of us to do things to the best of their ability. What you’re saying is that we shouldn’t prepare a document that will have a sting in the tail.

It is not a training document. It is a document about the way we do business.
R: CFA does properly look after volunteers with correct insurance to ensure that volunteers are covered in the event of negligence. They want to muster a volunteer workforce and they look after the volunteers.

The one word I’m uncomfortable with is “will”. It is very proscriptive and needs to be removed.
I’d prefer that there is neither ‘shall’ nor ‘will’ be included. (V2).

With what volunteers do, one of the key ingredients is the amount of money we save. There is an economic benefit to the community in what we provide. The converse to this is what would it cost the government to provide the service is volunteers didn’t provide it cost free.
R: This will be noted.

You’ve got to get a commitment from an opposition that if there is a change of party, they will honour the agreement. If you try to get it later after the election, you’ve got buckley’s
R: We also intended that local brigades could take the charter to their local council for agreement.
R: We had thought about multiple points of agreement.

There’s 300 blue shirts and 60,000 volunteers. The whole purpose of the career staff is to support the volunteers.
R: The government has already indicated otherwise. It is our intention to reverse this in the charter. But we’ve just had another three hundred blue shirts added to the equation. The ideological issues are important. It is important that volunteers are given a voice, not just the squeaky wheel.

With us as volunteers, we don’t have ourselves organised. 
R: We’re like a union ourselves.

I don’t see anything about the ability of CFA. If we work to the best of our ability and fail, what support is coming from CFA?
R: CFA recently put out a document to reassure volunteers that they were protected if they were working to the best of their abilities. What we want the CFA to do is to consult with elected representatives about changes. The aim is to consult before implementation, not afterward.

Undertake timely consultation on ALL matters concerning volunteers. 
(Need to check this in the charter.)

We need to have CFA give us the benefit of the doubt and consult with Volunteers on all things, not just the things that concern them.

Provide support 
R: maybe need to tease out what these supports are by indicating the level of insurance protection.

Need to include reference to the amount of money saved in the community within the charter. The real test of the government is for them to stand up and say that they love us (the vols) in the face of the union.

If CFA antagonizes the UFU they won’t walk off the job. You can’t antagonize the people who provide the emergency services. With volunteers, we don’t get the replacements who drop off. They aren’t there to continue the support for us. It’s the squeaky wheel that get the grease. CFA will be reactive to the situation. 
R: In the negotiations, the volunteer was the line of least resistance. We lost when the going got tough. 
They’ll leave that in. It will make them look good.
R: we have to recognise this is the start of the game plan. When we get it in, we will start organising things the way we want.

R: We want to capitalize on the governments good will by getting them to agree to do what they say.

Vols see nothing of the benefits of any funding. It all goes to the perms as fire stations or uniforms or equipment. The volunteers get nothing.
R: Yes we need to get into the nitty gritty of negotiation.

Can we get this into the charter? Get something that says volunteers will receive the money? We want a guarantee of equipment, PPC, buildings.
R: The charter is the ideological pact. The detail of any agreements that follow will include this. We want some respectful behaviour. That this the focus of the Charter. What we get after that will be the subject of suitable negotiation.

What about something of the status of UFU. Say that they are not allowed to have any influence on volunteer matters. They document needs to say that the CFA doesn’t go to the unions on volunteer matters.
R: My view is that we can take the position and say that we should be protected but I’m really thing, down the track, the only problem we’ve got with the UFU is they are better at this that we are. The UFU are not undesirable human beings, they’re just getting more out of the situation. We’ve got to be as good as the UFU in getting our position recognised. We can’t say the UFU should be banned.  Maybe we could put in that industrial bodies don’t have the right to be consulted.

Maybe we should thank the UFU for giving us (vols) a wakeup call. (V3).

If you see where the money goes towards getting the career staff on board. There’s got to be a segment on CFA budget to make sure hat the things volunteers want (trucks equipment, fire stations). If we were asked to prepare a shopping list, we wouldn’t have much problem creating a list and spending $50m.
R: We need to argue for what we want and then argue to get the funding to produce it.
R: Perhaps we could include word to include funding to get what volunteers want. Be specific about meeting volunteers requirements.  Yes we need an input into how the money is spent.

What’s the time frame?
R: We’re hoping to get it in by Aug. 
R: The end point is October. IYV.

R: If the Premier is not going to give his signature, we’ll need to come back to the volunteers to get their view. 
R: What we’re asking for is not unreasonable.
R: We’ve got to get the minister to love us and the minister’s advisors to love us. I think we can do it.

R: Any further proposed changes will be circulated back to brigades. We need to keep you happy with the final document. If we have no further problems, we will proceed.

Do you support the concept in a general? YES (unanimous)

Endorse the themes in the charter? YES (unanimous)

R: This has been the best turnout so far.  Outer metro area has the most to lose and has been the most involved recently. There are lots of people who walk away or just don’t turn up. If there are too many hurdles, you’ll turn people away.

This has the potential to revive the organisation. Unless the system is in place that will create the enthusiasm and input to take us to the next generation.

(V1) People thought that this would be a warm and fuzzy document hat would give us nothing. We now know that it has more teeth. Thank you for coming to region 14. There was  lot of anger when we found that we had been left off the agenda considering the dramas and issues.

On behalf of volunteers, thanks to the members of the committee for their input and contribution to the meeting. Thanks to all.
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Sale, Wednesday 28 March 2001

Notes on Discussion Points

Preamble
Accepted by all present.

Q: At what forum will we be given the opportunity to discuss issues as they come up?
A: Wherever volunteers are present, eg. On Association committees, RPC etc. Comment. Consultation will happen on a case by case basis.

Q: Does it change any rights which already exist – can personal issues be addressed?
A: See it as a Bill of Rights – it’s not trying to change anything which is already there – protection against any impact on volunteers. Comment: Someone needs to be dedicated to have a link at Group level so there is someone to go to. Comment. Important to say the charter is the first step in a longer process over a period of time. Defines in clear terms who volunteers are and what their rights are.   Another Steering Committee on Volunteer Code of Conduct is running in parallel with the Volunteer Charter.

Volunteering in CFA
Q: Are the Unions going to respect this Charter?
A: All issues concerning volunteers will need to be discussed with  volunteers, eg. EBAs etc.   Will be done in consultation with input from the volunteers. Comment. Unions represent career staff, volunteers don’t get a look in.  This agreement will them a right to have a vested interest in the issues, raise the profile and give more rights. 

Q: Shouldn’t the Associations be doing the job of the Volunteer Charter? 
Comment: The Charter should give volunteers the right to have the Associations involved in negotiations with Unions.

Question: Will this give both Associations a seat on the Committee?
A: Yes – could be 4 representatives.

Q: What is the definition of a volunteer?   Any suggestions?
A: Definition was given from Webster’s Dictionary.

The Charter
Q: Who’s representing the volunteers?  We need people to get closer to the grass roots – maybe shop stewards? There’s a good structure with RPC and Associations but once It gets past the Region it gets watered down.   Associations need a better structure. 
Q: Does legislation need to be changed?
A: No. it does not.

Q: Will this be a legal document?
A: Yes, it’s a contract – it would be interesting to see what would  happen if it ever had to get to Court.

Q: Does it cover other emergency services, SES etc.
A: No, CFA only.

Volunteers will……
Comment: Why have any of this, why not just say “you will carry out your duty”?
Comment.: Volunteers will, to the best of their abilities…..would like to see some  reference to time availability.

General 
Comments: 
The consensus was that “abilities” covered availability. More emphasis should be placed on “best of abilities”. 
Consensus was that this was adequately covered, but it was  accepted that it could be emphasised more – to be investigated. 
This paragraph does not say much – it is what volunteers are committing to and should be better spelled out.
We shouldn’t leave loopholes for Union to question.
Regarding duties, maybe the Act should be quoted to be more  specific.

Should leave out “any” before “duties”. Delete “support” Association representatives.
 

CFA will……..

Paragraph 1. Accepted as written.

Paragraph 2. Accepted as written.

Paragraphs 3 & 4
As long as elected representative have consulted at grass roots and don’t follow their own agendas.
“Timely and meaningful consultation” – not strong enough.  Would like stronger wording.
Volunteers are responsible for making it stick.
Shouldn’t lock it up too much as it has to be a two way street.
A formal process for informing Associations of anything that is going to happen.  Delegates should be more responsible for informing volunteers.
Need to make sure Association delegates take volunteer issues to meetings.

Paragraph 6 
Some brigades need more help with administration.

Paragraph 7
Q: Career Development – why is this included?
A: CFA will support volunteers to make a career move should they so desire.

Government will……..
Q: Has the Government already seen the charter?
A: The Minister has been advised about the development of the Charter. It is not appropriate to go to CFA or government before some consensus is obtained from Volunteers about its content.

Comment: “Recognise, value, respect………..” – volunteers’ employers should be included.
Comment:  In para.3  “recognises…”, add the word “protect”. 
Q: With brigades on the border, Victoria sometimes flows into NSW and vice verca – what then?
A: Legislation already covers this issue.

Does the meeting support the general concept?
Yes (unanimous)

Does the meeting endorse the themes in the charter?
Yes (unanimous)
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Knox, 29 March 2001 

A question was raised regarding the charter not being a “legal” document. 
A: The charter will be a formal document but not legal in the sense that there will be no tribunal or body to which you can go to if something does not happen.  However, there are 3 parties involved in this charter who can be consulted.

It was mentioned that previously with the EBA 4 parties were involved and there had been a lot of consultation but that the Government had left the volunteers “high and dry” with no further consultation.
R: The 3 parties involved in this charter would all have agreed principles.  If volunteers felt that one party had broken the rules, they would be able to talk to the other parties to complain.

This charter will give some “clout” to the parties and will raise the stakes for the volunteers.

At the moment, no-one needs to speak to the volunteers regarding changes, amendments etc affecting them, but this charter is the first step to ensuring that volunteers will be asked their point of view before any new changes are introduced.

There was concern that the document needed to include something that speaks about “not taking from one to give to the other”.  It was mentioned that, at this stage, the Government and the Authority were reasonably agreeable about the document so it needed to be kept fairly vague, otherwise they would not agree to it.  This vagueness is both a strength and weakness, the strength being that the document can be built on once it has been signed off.

Adrian Walsh mentioned that the charter would be similar to the Parliamentry process, in that it would be presented as fairly vague but the details would then be like the 2nd reading speech.

There was some debate about the review period being suggested at every 5 years, and one volunteer thought every 3 or 4 years may be better to ensure that if any issues needed changing it could be done sooner.  Another volunteer asked if it really needed to be signed off by each new Government as it was vague enough to be signed by any Government.  The committee, however, wanted to ensure any new Government was on their side by getting them to review it soon after they came into power.

One volunteer asked why the committee thought there were not so many attendees at this meeting and suggested it was obviously because volunteers felt the charter was not “a burning issue”.  It does not give volunteers a warm feeling and anything more than they have.  Bruce Conboy replied that it is a start and we need to start somewhere.  Firstly we need to get the three parties to sign off the document then the details can be refined later.

The charter needs to gain enough commitment from the volunteers.  Some volunteers had given feedback via e-mail but it was suggested that others did not understand the charter and it needed to be sold to them in a better way. 

The Associations need the support of the volunteers but also need to support them in return and give them a voice.

It was mentioned that the new CEO was already trying to get a handle on the volunteers and was committed to listening to their concerns and taking action.  He should be seen as a breath of fresh air to the Associations in getting things moving. 

It was suggested that the CEO’s thoughts should be gained on the draft charter.  The Committee reiterated that firstly this is a document by volunteers for volunteers but secondly the views would be sought from the CFA and Ministry.

The charter is the closest we will get to a legally binding document and we need to look at this as the start of a process.  It was suggested that this document needs to be marketed in a different way.  It needs to be sold as a first step but everyone needs to know that there will be a second and third step etc and that it will be an ongoing process.

The volunteers need to get behind the Associations and show their support.  Both Associations have also recognised the need to get their act together.

Bob Horner commented that if we are able to champion the cause a bit further and get the base document completed and sold to everyone else then in the future anybody would be able to question why is this not happening, etc.

The question was asked: “Do you support the general concept of a volunteer charter?” and “Do you agree with themes of the document?” and all volunteers present agreed. 

However, people need to see the association between the charter and the CFA and the message needs to be broadened to gain the interest of all volunteers.  Also, the message of this being the first step but the bigger picture will be coming needs to be reinforced.

One volunteer mentioned that the benefits need to be explained to the Brigade otherwise there will be no further interest.  The committee replied that a lot of work had already gone into preparing the document and the benefits should be evident.

The meeting closed at 21:30.
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Western State Telephone Conference 3 April 2001

The following comments were raised, in no particular order of importance.

V: Heywood Group
Agreed with the concepts raised. Concerned about the duration of Charter review period.

V. Region 4 HQ, Casterton, joined by other volunteers from two groups.
Feel that the 5 year duration before review of the charter is too long. Prefers 3 years. Not sure about the effect of a change in government. Asked what incentive there is for the government to sign.
QT: There is not a lot. We need lots of volunteers to support the charter to get government to sign. Lots of volunteer support will be our greatest strength. We need to make it clear that we are hurting from the last deal with the EBA. We would like to get the charter raised in parliament. There is no compulsion for the government to sign. We will need to be persuasive. 

V: Region 4.
The fourth dot point in the “Victorian Government will…” needs to be strengthened to “ensure effective resources”. With the changeover of trucks it is easy to see we are a long way behind.  If we don’t argue for adequate funding we will never get it.
QT: This could be grist for subsequent meetings with CFA.
NJ: Volunteers can be overlooked  if other pressing needs arise. I understand and support the issue. Maybe we need to beef up the working on funding.

V, Warrnambool Fire Station
Generally in agreement with the charter.

V. Warrnambool Fire Station.
The fourth point in “Volunteering in CFA…” (Volunteers actively promote fire prevention works) needs to be strengthened by making it the first point. Then everything else follows from that.
Agrees that the charter should have a three year life for the first edition, then five year thereafter.
In section “CFA will….” want stronger wording. E.g., in dot point 3 in this section of the charter, CFA must undertake time for meaningful consultation.

V:: Region 17 HQ.
It is very important to reflect the timely and meaningful consultation. It takes ages to get to the grass roots.  Even at State Council there is not enough time given to consult at Executive and State Council meetings. There may be a need to include an effective time frame depending on the issue.
NJ: The important thing underpinning this document is that we can’t state any time frames. Sometimes, in the past, we have been asked to get 24 hour turnaround on an issue. Perhaps we need a subsequent document that articulates how CFA will consult with volunteers.
QT: One other main points in this charter is consultation with elected representatives. These are the Association representatives. They’ve been  kept out of the loop, therefore the volunteers have been kept out of the loop. The existing consultative mechanism needs to be reviewed anyway. The mechanism may be the content of a subsequent document.  There is a need for an agreed consultative mechanism.

V, Region 17 HQ.
A lot of volunteers I have spoken to are very concerned about involvement of the union. Unions are having a big input over our training at the moment.  What’s their involvement?
QT: They’re not involved in the charter. We’re excluded from the EBA. The charter sets up a process of get involvement in these issues. Union is not a partner in this process. Volunteers may need to have dialogue with the unions in order to develop a mutual position that can be put to CFA.
V: The unions can’t be forgotten. There is also a concern amongst volunteers concerning where they fit into CFA. I think we stand close to the top but the question is being asked. Where do volunteers fit? We need to be seen as senior partners, not junior.
QT: Slide 8 of the presentation cover this. It says volunteers should be put at the centre of CFA, but Graham, you’re saying we should be on top. Maybe we need to add these words in there.
V: We have to be seen as the core of the organisation..
NJ: We need to put this in the commitment.
QT: We want to be put back where we belong.
V: Our bargaining strength will enhanced.

V: Mildura Fire Station
We endorse what’s being said. Has there been any response from CFA or government?
QT: The VUFBA has received a reply from Garth Head, Senior Ministerial Advisor. It indicates that the government will welcome discussions from us. Perhaps we need to get the Premier to sign off on the charter to get the most senior politician.
V: In Mildura we have an independent politician, Russell Savage, who has been briefed by UFU people. We need to keep pace with the union in terms of informing our politicians.
QT: When the pressure is on, the CFA may be powerless to represent the views of volunteers. In one respect, the union is owed a vote of thanks for sending us the wake up call. The Associations need to understand and take control of our future so we can use the strength of volunteer numbers with politicians and the UFU.  The overarching body of the Associations will have a CEO who will be the volunteers Peter Marshall. The charter is one thing, the EBA is another and the overarching Association body is a key platform. The charter then is the first step.

V Mildura: Whilst the charter calls for mutual respect, there are some locations where this respect is made more difficult.
NJ: It is important to put mutual respect into the charter even if there are some local difficulties. We want it to be a positive document and not to isolate any one group or individual.
QT: The focus is on fair, just and reasonable. These words so that there is equity between partners to the agreement.

V Mildura: In regard to the third dot point in the section “CFA will… undertake timely and meaningful consultation….” I can recall times when CFA has neglected to consult with volunteers. There is a need for a training program to alert CFA staff to this need. 

V Mildura: Also, there may be difficulty for some volunteer who are Associate Members of the UFU to support the Associations views.
QT: We need to win them over and convince them that we’ll look after them.  We need to engender in CFA staff a strong commitment  to support the volunteers.
V Mildura: They need reminding of this.

V2: Mildura Fire Station.
We need to include the consultation included in slide 17 into slide 16 also.  The issues relate to not being consulted before decisions are made.
QT: It is not usual to put time limits on consultation, but we are part of the business and entitled to be consulted. Volunteers own CFA. We existed before CFA came into being. We formed it. CFA was formed afterwards to coordinate what was already there.

V: Region 6Colac supported by 6 others. (Colac, Corangamite, Camperdown)
In the charter, coming up against the UFU is only one part. The overarching body of the Associations is another strategy.

V2: Colac Urban
I would like to see the works SHALL be put into the charter to make it stronger. CFA MUST (not will) consult. Also I’d like to see volunteers protected. Include SHALL be protected.

V Colac We wanted to query the five year review of the charter. What there any reason for the five years?
QT: Others have commented that 5 years may be too long.
V Colac: The feeling here is that 5 years is too long before a review is conducted. We suggest 2 years. We want to see how effective it is and five years is too long if its not working.
We’re also concerned that only one party can propose a review. Or do all parties have to agreed to a review?
QT: We would expect that all parties would have to agree to any changes.
NJ: Two years may be too short. I agree 5 years is too long. If it is too short a period, people can fiddle around with it too much before it becomes bedded down. It needs to be promoted and bedded down. Lets find some nice middle ground.

V Colac: Maybe three years first then 5 years thereafter. 
QT: The parties which sign must be enduring across changes in government and management. 
V Colac: I prefer the works MUST UNDERTAKE meaningful consultation. It needs stronger wording.  In the section “CFA will…” in the first point, change it to read “Recognise, value, respect and promote CFA volunteer AND VOLUTEERISM.
Also in the same section in dot point five, include the words AND EFFECTIVELY at the end of the sentence: …to enable volunteers to perform their roles safely and effectively.”

V Colac: We would also prefer that dot point 4 in “The Victorian Government will….” be beefed up. It needs to say that government will ensure adequate resources…. 
NJ: Adequate resources needs a bit more work. Other people have commented to me about this.

Conclusion:
At the end of the discussion, all persons chairing the meetings at their local phone points were asked if they supported the concept of the charter:
V: Yes. Fully supported it . It will strengthen the volunteers.
V: Overwhelming support.
V:  We all support the concept.
V: There is a fair nodding of  heads here. We support the concept. We want the wording to be stronger.
V: We’ve got 6 out of 6 with thumbs up. We want to comment the steering committee on an excellent first draft.
V: (at Colac)  Everyone here is in agreement and thank you  for allowing us input. Keep up the good work.

The meeting was further canvassed concerning support for the themes in the charter and whether we have consulted widely enough.
V Mildura: Themes are OK. The number of brigades consulted is OK
V Colac: We endorse the themes – they’re going in the right direction. We have a range of urban and rural brigades here with both associations represented. Yes there has been adequate representation.
V Horaham: Yes to the themes. We have 9 brigades represented here and both Associations.
V Warrnambool: Yes to the themes. We support he themes. Representation has been OK.
V Casterton: All are in agreement here. We feel that the consultation has not been good especially through the rural association. Better distribution of letters and feedback via the Associations is preferred.
V: Endorse the themes. Distribution has been OK. I guess silence is consent.

The meeting was closed at 9.40 pm.
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Corio 4 April 2001 

Allan Small presented the Volunteer Charter and stepped through the standard presentation. At the end of the presentation, some discussion was held.

V1:  I support the whole lot of this. Given the industrial negotiations and we couldn’t get involved in it, how will the charter help us?  What if the Government, or the UFU or CFA simply does it again?
AS: By having their signatures on it, they will be required to consult with us on the matters that effect us.
V1: Is there any legal requirement for them to do this?
AS: No. Because we’re not employees, we have no jurisdiction when it comes to the EBA.
IB: In negotiations, the unions can make the decisions as they see fit, but if we, through the two Associations, can make our policy positions known and we have the undertaking from the CFA to consult, we’ll be in a better position. 

V1: But we lost the issue concerned CSF’s.
IB: In the past we have been in reactive mode and on the back foot. Previously, we were influential in getting CFA to create the CSF’s in the first place. We lost them because we were unable to negotiate.

V1: Before that position was finalised, we went to the government and put our case but we lost. I’m not against the charter. But how do we ensure that we don’t get in that situation again?
BS: The Associations did do a lot of hard work. And although it hurt us, it is the best thing that could have happened. It has given us a wake up call. This is the vital thing.  It is no good the CFA telling us what will be in the charter. We want to make sure it is volunteer driven. 
AS: This is a quasi gentleman’s agreement. But no longer will we have CFA or anyone else telling volunteer what to do. No longer will we accept others making comments or decisions on our behalf. We want volunteers to be involved and be passionate about driving the issues whatever they may be. 

IB: We should make it clear that the Government will do things and the CFA will do things – we’re writing that part of it. There will need to be discussion with these parties concerning the degree of input they should be making.  We should ask ourselves why do we have the CFA? 
Volunteer (V): To provide the service, the equipment and the facilities. They’re also there to work for the volunteers.
V2: They’re there for the volunteers.
IB: The reason why we have the CFA and not the bushfire groups like they have in NSW is because if the state gets on fire, you’ve got to have a coordinated way of putting it out. The CFA is forced and committed to maintaining a volunteer system. We have a situation where CFA has got the volunteers’ collective noses in a knot because through the industrial negotiations the employees have had to be taken care of, but the volunteers have been forgotten.

V2: I don’t disagree. The purpose of CFA was to provide a coordinated approach to fire fighting across the State.
I agree with Bruce. Is there any way we could put in a clause if they don’t consult us, what can we do. Is there some simple wording that can be included to prevent us being walked over?
AS: There has been some talk of having a third party involved in arbitration.
IB: Look, if we have 60,000 volunteers backing a decision, then we have clout. We’ve never been organised before. It will be challenging to the government, it will be challenging to the CFA. In our case it will be the court of public opinion.

V2: I think we’ve got to get a bit of mongrel into us. 
V1: I agree that we need to get a bit of bastard into ourselves and fight.

BS: Previously brigades have wanted to take independent action through strikes or bans. But it this happens, other volunteers will walk away. Some clear thinking people have taken the view that if volunteers support this sort of strike action or bans on reports, we’ve got to think about what it is that we’re here for.  We volunteered to do a job, not to become involved in bans and sanctions.

V: A Charter is not a legally binding document but its an agreement. It would be a foolish government that didn’t honour the agreement. It’s a commitment. This element of commitment is more important than trying to tie it up legally.

V: From my point of view, its good that everyone will sign off on this, but I have no faith that CFA will go along with this unless you can force CFA into this.
AS: The CFA is quite happy with the form of the charter. The government is aware of it. They’re not against the concept. It’s not a secret.

V: In the IYV, this will be a great thing for them to sign, but when it comes to enforcing it, this will be another matter. I’m just not comfortable that CFA will do what it agrees to do.

AS: Perhaps the Governor, John Landy, will be able to sign this and this will give is some standing. It will be harder not to work with this agreement if is has good standing. 

V: But when the chips are down, the CFA will walk away.

Q: How do the Board members feel about this?
AS: It seems that the Board were embarrassed that they didn’t have enough knowledge of how the volunteers were feeling during previous negotiations around the EBA.  I’ve now had much more support from the other members on the board. 

IB: We have large support across the state for this charter. No one has stood up and openly opposed this. But what is required is that the volunteers be willing to stand up and be counted and make the decisions that need to be made by the Associations on behalf of the volunteers and then to allow them to negotiate it on behalf of the volunteers.  We will set the agenda. We will be a part of the operation.

V: It used to happen, but not now.

AS: One thing we have going for us is a new CEO. He’s into dealing with us on business terms. We should be included in the decision making processes.

V: I’m not against it. I’m more than for it. It’s the mistrust implied by the CFA and the government because the CFA has followed what the government wants. We can be convinced here by what you say, but we have to convince the volunteers that they do need to have input. How we do this needs to be considered. 

AS: The Associations will take that on board. They are planning to have an amalgamated central group who will deal with this.

V: Yep. We need to get input form the volunteers and make sure their input is included. 

IB: How often do you get surveyed by your Association on statewide issues?

BP: We’ve got 54 brigades in region 7. It’s a bit sad that the turn out has been so poor.

V: Is there a problem with the idea that once our representatives become members of the board, is their position compromised? Are they truly able to represent the volunteers? Or do they become part of the CFA board and have to toe the line?
IB: Its difficult if the volunteers don’t give the input to guide them. 
BS: The wheels fell of about 11 years ago when Ray Greenwood was the Chairman. The new CEO, coming from local government. He has independence. The previous chairmen were government appointments. We became a bureaucracy and we were all treated with a bit of mushroom. 

V: Is there any way the legislation and the composition of the board can be changed to enhance the positions of the Associations?
IB: We are doing pretty well with four representatives on the board. Do we eventually go for proportional representation? We still have two representatives from DNRE and two from the insurance companies. Many of them are not real representatives of us. They are chosen for their background and expertise to assist the Board.
V: I understand Board members are now able to report on issues and they don’t have to keep matter confidential.
BS: Previously we had six representatives from the volunteers and that is where the rot set in because there was undue influence by the volunteers.

Q: Is there support for the volunteer – YES Unanimous.
Q: Is there endorsement for the themes?  YES  Unanimous.

Meeting closed at 8.55 pm
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Ararat 5 April 2001 

Bob Smith opened the meeting at 7.35 pm and delivered the presentation.
BS: Whilst communication was originally good between CFA and volunteers, in the last 10 years the level of communication has gone into decline. The dialogue seems to have decreased.  Whether we like it or not, the union are in the position of being able to talk to CFA and the government.  That’s where we have been left in the dark.

QT: It needs to be pointed out that this document is designed to ensure consultation. It is likely that it will be subsequently followed up by discussion about the issues that have been raised in these feedback meetings.

V2: Why has the west of the state been marginalised? Why is it that there is no representative from this region on the steering committee?
IB: Ian outlined the background to the development of the development of the charter. It began in region 8, Westernport area, because there was discontent with the input from volunteers. Region 8 carried the responsibility for developing a charter. 
V2: That still doesn’t explain why there was no representative from region 16 or region 5. If we had someone from our regions pushing this along, then it would have been presented better to people in our region.
BS: 

BS: The charter was mailed to every brigade secretary through the regions on 12 February and mailed directly to every brigade captain. There were stories about the Charter printed in Brigade News and Fireman. It was on the front page of brigade news in the last edition. There was a big story in the Fireman for the March edition. Don’t you read the Fireman or Brigade News?
V2: Well it wasn’t sent to group level.  It did not come out over the scheds. Some brigade secretaries threw it away. A lot of brigades haven’t had their annual meeting. 
QT: Well, we can’t be held responsible if brigades don’t want to inform their members.
V2: There is no one from the western half of the state. We feel that the western half of the state is marginalised in this process.  We’d like to have a representative from this region. 
QT: But I’m from Creswick. I’m from the Western half of the State.
PS: But you don’t count because you’re representing the VUFBA.
BS: Well, I’m from Ocean Grove. I’m from the Western half of the state. 

AW: The committee was selected so as to provide a broad representation of urban and rural from across the state keeping in mind the difficulties of distance travelled by people. Originally, there was no representative from Region 14 and the local urban/rural regional Association made clear representation to the committee. As a result, another committee member was included from region 14. If you feel that inclusion of a representative from region 16 or region 5 would help the process and encourage the charter to be better accepted, then make your nomination. The steering committee will certainly consider it.
QT: Yes the committee will consider.
AW: Who amongst you present here tonight would like to be included?

V3 wants it to be clearly pointed out that CFA has disenfranchised the whole of the west of the state and that this needs to be impressed on the CFA. Sending information through the regional office is useless because the staff in the regional offices have been gutted.  There is no support.

QT: Perhaps in this slide it is a good place to put in that volunteers are widely spread across the state. We need to be reminded of the point you are making. That the volunteers cover the whole state. This needs to be included in the charter. 

V2: I’m also concerned about the distribution of funding. It seems that there is a lot of money spend on administration and not enough spent on brigades. It seems that a lot of it is consumed at HQ and not enough of it reaches the regions.

V1: If I can make a statement.. I’ve just been recycled and been made captain again. When I was captain last time we had in Hamilton a regional officer and an assistant regional officer. We got better service out of those two blokes than we get now. All this issue about money being wasted by staff and flash cars.  If you ring them up at five past five you don’t get anyone. They’ve switched it through to the fire station.
IB: We agree that the level of service is less now. 

Bob Smith continued with the presentation.

V2: Would the staff in the fire station be union members?
QT: This is another point that we need to take on board that the union needs to be mindful of its ideological views being forced in where they don’t fit. But we do need to work with the union. It’s the rhetoric of enforcing some policies where they just don’t fit that’s a problem.

V1: In the preamble, I think you should change the words ‘need to be consulted’ to ‘must be consulted’.  It needs to be stronger.
QT: Yes, this was raised in the teleconference last Tuesday. The volunteers have given clear feedback that the wording needs to be stronger. 
IB: We don’t have any difficulty with that at all.

PS: Part of the difficulty, with this respect issue, is that this charter doesn’t take into account how you get pillaged in the coroner’s court. You can get cross examined and it can be terrible, but its always done with respect and its never personal.  It’s never personal. Really we don’t have such a bad relationship on a personal level with career staff in general. 
BS: There are some people who love rubbing each other the wrong way.
V1: We feel it’s the mutual respect that is needed. We have a difficulty with the permanent staff in our region.
BS: Do you mean the career staff?
V1: Yes, the management . We’d like mutual respect but we don’t get that from our regional staff.
QT: This can only be worked out on the basis of trust. 
PS: There is a lot of work that needs to be done fairly quickly
V1: It is fairly difficult. Sometimes it is only possible to achieve a better situation when people move on. Either they retire or resign or are promoted. It is only then that you have the opportunity to have new people introduced who may treat you with more respect.
IB: It is difficult when some career staff are appointed, they don’t understand what is important in the volunteers.  This is something that we need to push so that the career staff will understand the importance of volunteers. There are some instances where career staff with a volunteer background are no longer able to support volunteers because of the work situation in which they are placed.
V1: Sorry, this is a major problem. If you’re seeing volunteers who become career staff and turn against volunteers then this is a major problem.

Discussion.

The presentation continued with the section about Volunteerism.

QT: We also need to include in the section that volunteers are involved with fire suppression.

V1: I don’t like the bit about ‘they don’t work for nothing’. We don’t want that bit in. Maybe they don’t work for nothing but they do work for their community. 
QT: Maybe there is a better way of putting it. Maybe we don’t work for money but we work for self satisfaction. Maybe we could rephrase it. We wanted to be able to say that we do it for the satisfaction of serving the community. We need to impress this on the government so that they know we’ll walk away if we feel bad about it.

V1: We do it to support our neighbours. 
IB: Yes we also do it to provide a wider range of support across the state. Its not just a selfish contribution to ourselves. It’s a contribution to the whole state. 
V1: Yes, there is an unbelievable feeling of gratefulness when other strike teams come and support you in times of trouble.
IB: In some brigades they’re only used to doing what’s in their own patch. 

The presentation continued with the section about this charter.

V1: What happens after 5 years? Who will be involved in the negotiations about changing this? Will the CFA take over?
QT: No way. It’s our charter. We don’t want the CFA and the government to tell us what to do.  We want the CFA and the Government involved but we want them to walk the talk, not just talk the talk. And when the union come along we want to get involved because we are significant stakeholders and we want to have a say in matter that affect us.  There’s no way we will take any backing down. If the government or CFA lets us down we’ll have to we’ll go on TV and let the community know the government is a phoney. Once they have signed the agreement, it is a common law document.   If we get rubbished by Peter Marshall and the government has signed the document, then we’ll want the government to do something to support volunteers against the ramblings of Peter Marshall. If they don’t stand up for us it will be political suicide for them.

IB: What we need is a consultative mechanism in our state. 
V1: So what we need is a volunteers’ association?
QT: The UFU has embarrassed us because they’re better at negotiating than we are.
V2: I think this (the issue of a consultative mechanism) needs to be put into the act.

V2: Quite frankly, we don’t like the charter. It says we should love the CFA and live in harmony with them.
QT: No it doesn’t.

V2: But the CFA will be telling us what to do.
QT: It says we should do it to the best of our ability.
V1: Of course, when you agree to become a volunteer, then you are saying that you’re prepared to follow instructions.

V1: I’m having a problem. Sorry I’m saying too much. Work safely I have a problem with that. Fire fighting this is a very difficult thing. Most of our work is with grassfires and it is a dangerous thing. We can’t work safely.
QT/ BS: No I disagree.
V1: No I’m worried that this will be used against us. If it is shown that we didn’t work safely we’ll be in trouble.  It is possible to work safely with a structural fire, but not with a grass fire.
PS: The end result was that we need to make a commitment to work safely.
V1: When there is a fire that moves quickly, there are always people who run around doing silly things. It is difficult to be sure that they will always work safely.
PS: Well the concept of working safely is in all the Chief Officer’s Standing Orders so they’ll hit you over the head with other documents long before they will hold you to this one. 

QT: The Charter clearly says that we will work to the best of our abilities…

The  CFA Commitment…..

PS: Can we talk about the elected representatives later?
BS: Yes.
V1: This (part about the CFA commitment) is pretty straight forward.
IB: We should ask is there more you think the CFA should provide? 

PS: It’s difficult and I’ve been too close to this for too long. There has always been conflicts of interest within the CFA. With respect to AW, he works for someone else.   CFA is involved wherever I go. At the coronial inquest, even though I had contact with Geoff Moore, there was never an opportunity to have a private conversation without someone from CFA  being involved or orchestrating the matters.
QT: VUFBA selected Geoff Moore. There was certainly an attempt to get a separation of powers. If you had wanted a private conversation with Geoff, you could have asked for it. CFA didn’t need to be involved.
PS: There was no member of my brigade who ever got to talk to him without CFA present. 
QT: Peter Davis was there at the court every day. He was there to represent the interests of volunteers. He was the one who would give instructions to Geoff Moore. Why didn’t you talk to him? You knew he was there.
PS: Look, it’s too late. There was no involvement from the Rural Association. There was no one who gave me support form the Association until the day I turned up in court.

QT: Well I want you to know that we did make clear decisions in the interests of volunteers that went against CFA.
IB: You’ve experienced a unique situation. We need to learn by your experience.

The Government Commitment….
BS: Any comments? The item about providing adequate financial resources.
V1: Yes they should find a fairer way of funding CFA.
BS: Yes this is an issue but not for tonight.
V1: It’s been an issue for 30 years.
BS: It needs to be remembered that a greater proportion of our funding comes from urban dwellers in the outer metropolitan areas. They subsidise the services for the rest of the state.

PS: We can only be volunteers by the grace of three groups. Ourselves, our families and our employers. We don’t support our employers well enough. I don’t know how we do it.
IB: The point has been made before. This is a prime reason why we need this signed by the Premier. That promotion has to be an ongoing one that recognises the contribution employers make to release their workers to fight fires.  If you can’t get the volunteers on an ongoing basis, the system fails. 

IB: “We’re the shop front of the organisation , not the time servers.

The presentation continued. Signatories….

What happens now….
V1: What will happen to that final draft. Will it be circulated to all brigades?
QT: Yes it will be circulate to all brigades.
V2: It seems to me that it is a fait accompli. 
BS: No. Its not.
V2: The ones who are against it will be disenfranchised. Every brigade member should have a vote on it.
BS: Every brigade has been advised. You can’t say its not democratic. If brigades choose not to inform their members, that’s their choice.
V2: Until every member knows about this you don’t have any right to go on with it.
V2: We don’t agree to signing the thing. We will have to do as we are told.
IB: No.
BS: It says to the best of your ability. 
IB: Are there things in the COSO’s (Chief Officers Standing Orders) that you’re not prepared to do?
BS: How may of us know what is in the COSO’s? 
V2: You shouldn’t have to do that . The NZ legislation is better.
QT: We’ve got to stop CFA from taking the attitude that you’ve got to give your whole life to CFA. We want to be respected for the small amount of work we do. Your point is a valid one. Maybe we need to spell it out a little more that the CFA recognises whatever amount of contribution volunteers can give. The words are coming out that you’re not happy with, but the notion of where you’re coming from we agree with. 
V2: We wouldn’t be volunteers if we weren’t prepared to be told what to do.
QT: Yes there are certain obligations but we don’t want it to be used against us.

PS: Recognise volunteer associations represent volunteers in general. What happens if I want to ring Len Foster to tell him something?  Will this be used against me because it has to go through the Associations? Will Len Foster tell me I can’t speak with him?

QT:  I would hope not. We need a consultative mechanism put in place because what we’ve got now isn’t working. By recognising the Associations you’re enabling them to represent your interests. I don’t think that should preclude people raising issues directly with CFA. But I would hope that you’d raise them with your Association first.

PS: The Rural Assoc is a bit of a boys club and its great to be on the Board. But I really don’t think they’ve helped. Went to them with a problem and they told us they can’t help us, go to the CFA and they’ll look after you. We had a member who was a UFU member who went through the UFU. You can’t believe how quickly the Chief Officer came down here to work it (the matter) out. 

IB: I just don’t think the Associations are adequately resourced to do the tasks. 

QT: I was as disappointed as you were to see that comment printed in the Fireman. It undid a lot of work that I’d tried to do to bring the two organisations together.  If we wrote out a job description now for volunteers, many of them wouldn’t get the job. But I’d like to use people like you with a strong voice who can work on behalf of volunteers.
PS: I just don’t want any of this to be used against us.
QT: Yes if everything had to go through the Associations, we’d be dead in the water. We don’t want to force the Associations to be used because they’re not up to scratch. That is why we’re looking for a volunteer board to be chaired by a CEO. This would allow people to be members of the board, not just Association members.

PS: I don’t doubt that up to now the Associations have not played the game as well as they could.
QT: Quite right. But in the past they haven’t had to? I was engaged to mediate between UFU and CFA two years ago. What I was finding was that the board and the Association were not standing up and being counted for volunteers. We wanted them to put their jobs on the line, but they wouldn’t. The CFA has said that we have to fight our own battles. It’s taken a while for us to become better organised and we’ve still got a way to go.

PS: We have a volunteer code of conduct meeting. I notice we have a Volunteer Discipline code. Where is it all going?
Where is there any discipline for paid staff out of HQ. 

V3: How will the new board be funded? I’ve known Max Maher. He’s on the Board
QT: No this is the Volunteers Association Board. In the future, the CFA at times will be our enemy. We don’t want it to be that way. We need it to be that way to get the matters done.
V1: It is an important question. How will it be funded? 
IB: Well, in the charter, there is included as a requirement for the Government to provide appropriate funding.
QT: We’ve already written a submission to the Government. We want them to give us the money. But we’ve got to get them to agree to the principle of consultation.  We have got to get them to give funding. When the government gives $27m to employ more employees, $500,000 is a drop in the bucket.

Conclusion:

QT: This has been the best meeting I’ve attended because this has raised some very strong views. This has been a good meeting.

V2: We’re one of the most disliked groups. The CFA don’t like us.
V1: I came along tonight expecting that this was a bill of rights. Once you sign up, you find out the things that were left out of it. If we can create a dialogue, we will be in a better position.

PS: There are some big issues that have to be sorted out. I would prefer to argue at the time and make the rules up as I go along.
IB: Our experience has demonstrated that this does require formal discussion.

BS: Well, lets put this to the vote.
Q: Is there support for the volunteer charter?  (1 conditionally yes.    2 No.   3 others did not vote.)
Conditionally subject to final draft. (1: PS). 
Do not support (2 V2).  We’ve had meetings in our brigade and our position as a brigade is not to support the charter.
V1 was not sure.

Q: Is there endorsement for the themes?  (2 volunteers supported the themes)
V2 I would support some aspects of it. 
V3 I’ve supported the concept. I suppose I should support the themes. 

Meeting closed at 9.35 pm

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Berwick  11 April 2001 

Presentation on Charter conducted by N.Jones (VRFBA), B.Conboy (VRFBA), I.Bennett (Gembrook R.) Agenda included:

v Welcome & Introduction 
v Purpose of meeting and program 
v Background
v Draft Charter
v General discussion
v Formal agreement

Ultimate aim is to get support for the Charter and to the point of signing off.  Meetings have been held to ensure all members are involved in the consultation process.

General Discussion
 

PREAMBLE 

§ (V1)  Would like to see that CFA & Govt. recognise our lack of industrial clout.  We (vols.) don’t have an opportunity to take industrial action if required and would like CFA and Govt. to recognise this.  Need to include something that says how we can address this issue.

(I.Bennett)  Indicated that this point had been raised several times at previous meetings.

§ (V2) Need to ensure we word things correctly.  Some people feel document is not strong enough.  Does it represent volunteers strongly enough?

(I.Bennett) Getting the guarantee of consultation between the 3 parties involved.  This will give the 2 Associations (VRFBA/VVUFBA) an opportunity to consider, discuss and create policy.

§ (V2) Does the document provide volunteers with the opportunity to be involved in decision making processes?

(N.Jones)  We need to be involved and if a decent case is put to the 3 parties then we will be OK.
 

VOLUNTEERING IN CFA
 

§ (V2.)Last sentence in this section not necessary – it is more an emotive sort of comment.

(N.Jones)  Need to recognise tradition of volunteering and that volunteers are the heart of the organisation. 
 

§ (V3)  Is this section saying what we’re feeling?  Need to delete the work “career” in Paragraph 3 as this generally relates to permanent fire fighters and should relate to ALL CFA staff.
 
 
 

THIS CHARTER

Generally felt that 5 year review time was too long.

§ (V4) Document is virtually an EBA for volunteers but we need to get it right as we won’t have another chance.  Would give us much greater strength than we have ever had before.

(I.Bennett) This is a formal agreement which we would like Gov. Landy to oversee the signing of.  Make it clear that this is a formal commitment to talk.

(B.Conboy) It is a common law agreement – Not a log of claims.

§ (Unknown Speaker) Timeframe needs to be an ongoing process. Clause needs to be inserted to this effect as there may be no review needed within the 5 year timeframe.

§ (V5.) Need to have some clout or no one will listen.  Independent arbiter needs to be appointed if agreement couldn’t be reached between the 3 parties.

§ (V4.) This issue has been raised several times and needs further investigation.

§ (V5.) Second paragraph  states that  it “is an enduring agreement” but we shouldn’t be bound to what the other parties are only willing to agree to.  We need to sign off for what WE want/are entitled to.

(B.Conboy) We have a window of opportunity that needs to be used even if everything is not quite as we require it initially.  Can be developed further once instigated.
 
 

§ (V6.)  Has legal advice been sought?

(B.Conboy)  May need to seek advice. Q.Turner’s IRT experience is of great assistance to Committee at present.

§ (V2.)  No consensus has been reached on the period of time mentioned in paragraph 3.  It is very important that we do get it right and we shouldn’t lock ourselves into a 5 year period.  Recommended that Charter be reviewed every 3 years. 
§ (V7)  Once signed it needs to be what we want and what we’re all happy with.  Will we have the ability to change it?

(N.Jones) Advised meeting that the majority of attendees at recent meetings were happy with a 3 year period and that this timeframe was settled on at last week’s teleconference.
 
 
 

VOLUNTEERS WILL, TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITIES…..

§ (Unknown speaker)  This section doesn’t say enough. Could add more including MFPC items plus other forums.

(B.Conboy) Advised that we need to keep it brief otherwise it would be necessary to list everything we do and we would end with a list possibly pages long.

§ (V6.)  Felt everything was covered adequately.

§ (Unknown)  “To the best of their ability” indicated that there are things that volunteers can’t do.  Could it be replaced with “Due care and attention”?

(A.Ford) Suggested that maybe replace with “Volunteers will diligently and professionally endeavour to”…………..
 
 
 

CFA WILL, IN RECOGNITION OF THIS VOLUNTEER COMMITMENT….

§ (Unknown) Section f – The word ‘Career’ appears to relate to staff fire fighters but is meant to relate more so to our own volunteer brigades, i.e. officer ranks, Group staffing etc.  There are also benefits in personal paid employment.

§ (RV8.) Taking “CFA” away from start of sentence will solve the problem.

§ (Unknown) Paragraph 5 – At the end of this paragraph include after the words “and effectively”.

§ (V2.)  Why does first paragraph say “different cultural backgrounds”?

(N.Jones) Advised that this does not mean “different nationalities” but is to identify that all brigades are unique. Shows that there are cultural as well as environmental differences.

§ (V2.)  All brigades have a common goal because we are volunteers.

(B.Conboy)  Need to recognise there are lots of differences in the way our services are delivered.

§ (V7)  The world “cultural” could be misinterpreted as “nationality”.

(B.Conboy)  Better word might be “diversity”.

§ (Unknown) Remove “Cost” from “Cost effective” in first paragraph. 
 

Comment from A.Ford after discussion relating to Title of this Section – Maybe the heading could be changed to include “The Victorian Government and CFA will……”
___________________________________________________________________
 

QUESTIONS TO MEETING:

1 Does the meeting support the general concept of the Volunteer Charter?

Unanimous answer of YES!
 
 

2 Does the meeting endorse the themes of the Charter?

 Answer:   YES
 
 
 

On request from V9, N.Jones gave a brief overview of process that will continue from now on.  Nev asked meeting if they believe they have been consulted in this process.  Answer was unanimously “Yes!”

Meeting closed at 2136 hours.
 
 

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Eastern State Telephone Conference 11 April 2001 

Present: 16 Volunteers, Quentin Turner (Creswick, VUFBA), Neville Pulham (Steering Committee Member, Fish Creek), Allan Woodward (Chair, CFA HQ).

Meeting was opened at 7.30 pm

The meeting was opened by Allan Woodward.
Quentin Turner gave an overview presentation 

Regarding slide #10 – Reality Check
V1: We’re just a bit concerned about where we are with training. We feel this document isn’t going to give us strength in that the training will be carried out by vols once a volunteer basis.
V2: The unions have nothing to do with this. We’ve got to be careful of what we say.
V6: Agree. What is being done is terrific.
Chris Parson: We’re really happy so far.
V5: Want to even up the balance between the union and volunteers in consultation with CFA.
V3: Wonder about the way the unions have been treating us. How can we rely on this document.

Regarding Slide #12 - Preamble
All participants indicated they didn’t have a difficulty with the Preamble.

Regarding Slide #13 – Volunteering in CFA
There is a bit of controversy in the last line. We want to be involved and thanked for what we do, not vilified.
V1 & Wayne Stacey: We like the statement.
V2: Yeah, I think the last line may need a review.
V4: The bottom line is the best line I’ve seen for a bumper sticker for a long while. We need to get rewards but not monetary.
V3: Agree with all that.
V5: Agree with Quentin.
V6: Agree with Wayne. It’s a good statement. We don’t want money. We want recognition.

Regarding Slide #14 – The Charter.
QT: indicated that there may be some concerns about the length of time for review of the charter.
V7: We think 2 years is long enough.
All other participants: All indicated that a 3 year review period was long enough.

Regarding Slide #15 – The Volunteer Committement.
QT the main points are that volunteers will do to the best of their ability… and that volunteers will be represented by the Associations.
All participants agreed with this slide.
V2: You may also help to encourage some people with minimum skills. This could be a positive thing. I think it embraces minimum skills.

Regarding Slide #16 – CFA Commitment.
QT: outlined that the wording may need to be a bit stronger.
Most participants agreed that the CFA commitment under the charter was quite OK
V3: One comment: We have many side fo CFA. Will they all agree?
QT: The chairman is still themain controller. He will be controlling the main negotiations. I think it is the Chairman that we wish to get to agree with this.

Regarding Slide #17 – The government commitment.
QT: We’d like to get the government to agree to things like changing the CFA Act to recognise the two way consultation between volunteers and CFA. We may also need funding for our Associations. The reason why we are seeking government commitment to these principles is to pave the way for the future. We need lots of support from volunteers: we want the government to understand that we have a very strong voting force behind our volunteers and their family members. Those are the sort of issues we want to present. It’s not a trap. It’s a smart way to get them to agree to all the good things we do.
V1: Agree with slide #17.
V2: Is there any indication that the government won’t sign? 
QT: No indication at this stage.
V8: In the second point, I wonder if employers should be included in this slide.
V4: It would be timely to get some sort of notification when this will be signed. It would be worthwhile to go to our local politician and let him or her know that this is what we want.
Allan Woodward: Thanks for the suggestion. We may be able to put this into the accompanying letter when the final version is forwarded to brigades and groups.
The remaining participants were comfortable with slide #17.

Regarding Slides #18 #19 – Signatories and what happens next.
QT: gave an overview of the slides.
Allan Woodward: indicated the expected timelines.
All participants indicated they were happy with these slides. 
V6 added: It’s in the best interests that the government will sign. I don’t think they will not sign.
 

The meeting was then formally asked if they agreed with the general concept of the charter and the themes in the charter.
Q: Is there support for the volunteer – YES Unanimous.
Q: Is there endorsement for the themes?  YES  Unanimous.

Meeting closed at 8.55 pm

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